Curse

Illithen Firebringer · Jan 06, 2007, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Okay, most of the info i have i got from Guildwiki, and my in game expeirience.

Charr Worship Titans
Titans=Abbadons servents
Vizeir=abbadons servent
margonites=Abbadons army
forgotten=Glints servents and gaurds
Mursaat=trying to stop abbadon from releasing the titans(kinda good but the Vizier tells you to kill them.)
Mantle=worship Mursaat

Abbadon created the titans and gave magic to the charr, which caused them to invade te human kingdoms. they were pushed back out of Kryta and Orr, so they turned to ascallon. the titans gave them the magic for the searing. the crystals are the projectiles that the charr rained down on ascalon.

Hope this helps

-Illithen

Sophitia Leafblade · Jan 08, 2007, 11:48 AM // 11:48

the charr got the power of the Searing presumable by the Titans (ie Via Abaddon), They Sacraficed a Moa bird in Pre and scouted out Ascalon and part of there planning (presumably the moa bird had some kind of magical effect although this may not neccarily be the charrs work, and the scouting were to plan there attack once the wall falls to defeat Ascalon quickly which they pretty much did).

The Charr used there Fire powers at the Temples (as seen above the wall in Pre and a similar one in the Flame Temple Corridor) to summon the Giant Metoer shower, presumable by combineing their Fire Powers to Perform a Massive feet at the suggest of the Titans. The Crystals are the Core of These Metoers that remain where they impacted Ascalon. I would imagine they are made from Jade, Jade being a key thing Abaddon likes to use, as seen in the Jade Wind, the Amount of Jade used in contruction of architectre by the evil forces and possibly by the Jades themselves (although this connection is yet to be full revealed)

Glints Crystals i would guess and say are the opposite of the Jade crystals, they would be infact made of Lodestone. (hence why crystal units drop enchanted lodestone and not Enchanted Jade.

Maria Moon · Jan 13, 2007, 04:57 AM // 04:57

ok i would give references and all that but i am really tired and all,

as far i know, the forgotten were created by the gods, if they worked with glint then i would presume glint was a servent of the 5 good gods, unless of course she tricked the forgoteen ect ect but lets not start a anti-glint / demonic dragon club here

na joke if u want to fine by me.

i still have to wonder, the flame seeker prophecies predicted that, the 'chosen' would bring down the mursaat (correct me if i am wrong) thus to mursaat used the bloodstones etc to prevent it, does this mean, that the gods either knew wat was going to happen before it did and placed glint there, or did they only place glint into the story after the mursaat started placing their hands around tyria, the latter theory seems highly unlikely as the gods had alreadly left tyria LONG ago at this point, so this leads to even MORE questions , wow see wat happens when GwG places a lore forum! , (na i love this forum its amazing really)

but then wat further perplexes me is that after u asceneded glint told you to go and save the remaining shining blade, but after you save them the vizier takes over, now why on earth did glint not intervine surely she must of recognised something was really off with this running around barking orders to take down the mursaat and to open the door of kamalie, and surely glint should of realized since she has been around for a long time that the vizier could not possibly be who he claims to be as he was the 1 who invoked the spell that destroyed Orr so many years ago yet she still did not intervine and let thing tumble into choas, this actually does kinda relate to u guys saying glint could of been "corrupt" (wow this is abit much) though i doubt in in my personal opinion i respect and do achknowledge the beliefs and facts presented by the other members.
to further complicate things though in wiki it does state that the searing was due to a spell invoked by it i think that funny char leader u kill in nolani academy at the end of the mission something burntfur or something like that o well, it is a possibility that abbadon was involved in this as it was a very unatural feet even for the char ( or should i say espicially for the char

) but wat happens then is that it leaves the question fo wat on earth could abbadon gain from destroying ascalon!?!

as far as i know the margonites were normal humans who lived during the age of the six gods, i am sure i read a thread somewhere else about the debate of weather the reason they went to war was due to ,.... or to ..... but let not go too deep into that just yet

in the trial for ascension it involves u going to "purify" urself of all the sins u have done etc now where alot of people are not sure is did the margonite seek to ascend to gain the forgivness of the 5 other gods of choosing abbadon over them or was it to try to "invade" the realm of the gods in the name of abbadon all i know is that they never did ascend to ya,..

i think wat is happening here is the typical lore fanatic disease where we suddenly realize "hey the story has alot of things left unanswered!" and for my part on it i think it is really nice that we can get togather and discuss such things, plz i would like to hear more people opinions about wat they believe happened this was just my opinion so dont go taking this as actual fact though of course some things are most probably true.

if i have offended anyone in this post plz forgive me i did not do so intentionly so plz dont feel offended, thank for tanking your time to read my post and thank you for all the contribution you all have added so far it is really nice to have a good discussion like this after you read the other posts where every is like "your noob so shut up"

draxynnic · Jan 13, 2007, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Essentially, I can think of two good reasons why Glint would allow the heroes to be duped by the Vizier without being evil:

The first is if, by her judgement, the Vizier opening the Door at some stage was inevitable (at least by the time you meet her). Without the help of the heroes, the Vizier may simply be able to, eventually, bury the Mursaat on the Ring of Fire under a pile of undead. Allowing the heroes to be duped also puts the heroes in exactly the right place in time to stop him.

The second is simply that she saw the defeat of the Mursaat as being worth the risk of the Vizier winning. Yes, from our viewpoint of knowing who the Vizier worked for and what his goals, and his master's goals were, this is hard to understand - but possibly what the Mursaat would have done without the Flameseeker Prophecies would have been worse.

SPOILER:

Actually, there's also a third option: Maybe she knows exactly what's going to happen, and it's all a plot to get Abaddon replaced. Essentially this is a scaling up of the first option above: Allowing the bad guys to almost win faster, but in such a way as to set them up for the fall.

Maria Moon · Jan 13, 2007, 05:58 PM // 17:58

thnks for that, some interesting point of views, though i know glint in on the "good" side, i cant help but get the feeling she could of let the us in on much more than she did and still go away with saving the world etc, but o well she will always be 1of the most talked about dragons in guild wars

Free Runner · Jan 13, 2007, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maria Moon

i cant help but get the feeling she could of let the us in on much more than she did and still go away with saving the world etc

Well if you think about it if she had of told us alot more Tyria may of been worse.

My interpretation of her telling us more:

If she had of told us about the true nature of the Vizier we would of wasted no time killing him. Then the Mursaat would not have to worry about the Flameseeker opening the door and could of turned on the humans.

The White Mantle would probably be in full operation aswell.

The Stone Summits leader Dagnar Stonesplitter may still of been around and the Stone Summit may of gained a upper hand on the Dwarfs of Deldrimor. The Ring Of Fire would of still been in action and the Door Of Komalie would remain ready to be broken into.

Tyria would be in its orginal state.

When she doesnt tell us more than we need to know:

We continue on through the ranks of the Mursaat heading towards Thunderhead Keep. We kill Dagnar Stonesplitter and take Thunderhead Keep back which is a blow to the Stone Summit.

We arrive on the Ring Of Fire Island Chain and proceed to deal the final blow to the White Mantle by killing three key council members (remember we killed Confessor Dorian in Thunderhead Keep)

We go on to fight the Mursaat further and break through the fortress defeating the Mursaat. After breaking the seals to the Door Of Komalie we unleash the Titans and eventually kill the Lich whilse recharging the batteries once and for all and closing the Door the final time before the volcano erupts.

Then we go against Titans,stop them and defeat the last of them along with many powerful Charr in Dragons Gullet.

This restores peace to Tyria.

Of course thats just my theory on what could of happend had we been told alot mroe than we needed to know.

Cherrie · Jan 14, 2007, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Does everyone recall the Oracle from Matrix, asking Neo would he break the glass if she hasn't told him?
And an older story, about Oedipus? His parents were told by an oracle that their son will kill his father and marry his mother, so they ordered their servant to kill Oedipus, but instead he was given to a shepard and rised by his family. When he matured, he met (annother? this is irrelevant anyways...) oracle who told him same prophecy - because he belived the shepardshis are parents, he left who he thought was his family. On his way he killed a man during an argument (road violence... the problem was, who should cross first ^.^), who was King of Troy, Oedipus real father. When he reached Troy, he defeated Sphinx thus saving the city and was given the hand of the queen of Troy - who was his mother. Thus, the prophecy was fullfilled,
There are many, many more myths about how running from one's destiny actually pushes peopleon their trail - this may explain why Glint acted like she did.

But other things puzzle me more: I see many things very disturbingly alike between the Crystal Desert and destroyed Ascalon. First of all, crystals - I'm sure it has been mentioned before in a thread about Glint: crystals in Ascalon are disturbingly similar to the ones in Glint's lair. What's more, there are corpses of ascalonian soldiers in her lair, and... does anyone remember the giant skeletons one comes across while exploring northern parts of post-searing Ascalon? They are also disturbingly similar to ones found on the desert.
To make it short, one of my guesses is: same that happend to Ascalon, happend to the place that is the desert now. It's sands are supposed to be tiny grains of crystal; sand comes from erosion of bigger rocks, why can't a crystal sand come from erosion of bigger crystals?
And since the Searing was caused by Abbadon, if same happend to the Desert, this would most probably be his doing as well.

Before Nightfall I used to think that Glint wasn't the good one she told us she is, but in the Real of Torment we clearly see The Forgotten - her allies and helpers - fighting Abbadon, so it's unlikely they - and the dragon - would aim for freeing him through the Gate of Komalie (tho 'unlikely' does not mean 'impossible' :>).

So who is the villain, except for Abbadon and his muppet, Vezir?... The Mursaat try to keep the Door sealed as well. Of course the common enemy does not always make people friends - even if both Glint and the Mursaat were opposing the Abbadon, they might have some old grudges that would keep them enemies. And The Forgotten most certainly have met the Mursaat before - if you pay closer attention to the Enchanted forces that accompany them at the Desert, you see that they bare striking resamblence to the Mursaat (note the feet, the mask and the 'wings' on the back) which, at least for me, is unlikely an accident.
There are at least three types of creatures so far we might describe as "enchanted armors" - the enchanted on the desert, Shiro's constructs and jade armors. We know constructs are pieces of armor powered by bound souls (and they drop soulstones - probably what makes them going; it's similar to Jewish golem myth actually - a magical piece of something powers a non-living thing, makes it alive and OBEYING their creator's orders). The Enchanted are found fighting alongside with the Forgotten and they drop Forgotten seals... My guess is, they are Forgottens' 'golems' as well, not allies per se, but slaves like Constructs to Shiro, made of remains of Mursaat. And desacration corpses/remains aint an obvious thing to do to an ally or friend, is it? Thus I'd vote for them being long-time enemies.
But it still does not make the Mursaat evil. Not only they try to keep the Door sealed (we might not like the fact that they sacrifice people on the Bloodstone, but they do keep the Titans closed, don't they? there are multiple philosophical systems that would justify their actions, like utilitarianism) - they don't seem to fail under Abaddons corruption: have we met ANY Mursaat in the Realm of Torment? We meet the Charr, even the Forgotten who were tainted. Not a single Mursaat.
To expand the golem-thing, and to ask even more questions, let's focus on the Jades for a bit: if we agree that 'golem-like' creatures are slaves bound to the races/masters that controll them, and if we take a closer look at the Jades: their heads do bear a strong resamblence to Margonite masks and Abbadon's statue. Of course this might be accidental, but taking into consideration that Mursaat guard the door to the realm where Abbadon and his followers dwell, this option is not at all that probable. More probable - at least for me, and despite how ridiculous it might seem at first - would be that what powers Jades are bound Margonite souls.

The theories I propose might not give a lot of anwsers - basicly they give no anwsers at all ^.^ But I think they are at least worth consideration.
What could happen to the Desert that what was there before would be destroyed in a way Ascalon was (probably by Abbadon as well)? Well, Mouth of Torment isn't that far away, maybe it happend during the battle between Abbadon and the Five Gods? But still, where do those giant skeletons come from... And who are the Mursaat apart from the fact that they are opposed to both Abbadon and the Forgoten, as it seems?

Maria Moon, I think the question "What would Abbadon gain by destroying Ascalon" was anwsered in Nightfall, in one of the Torment quests: the Charr invasion, having reached Orr, made Vezir use the spell he used and thus fall to Adabon.

Mesmer in Need · Jan 15, 2007, 08:45 AM // 08:45

so im thinking theres just basically 3 sides:
glint with:
forgotten
humans (us)
dwarfs
shining blade
good dwarfs
then abbadon with:
viser
charr
titans
margonites.
Next:
mursaat
stone summit
white mantle

Teger · Jan 16, 2007, 05:37 AM // 05:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Essentially, I can think of two good reasons why Glint would allow the heroes to be duped by the Vizier without being evil:

The first is if, by her judgement, the Vizier opening the Door at some stage was inevitable (at least by the time you meet her). Without the help of the heroes, the Vizier may simply be able to, eventually, bury the Mursaat on the Ring of Fire under a pile of undead. Allowing the heroes to be duped also puts the heroes in exactly the right place in time to stop him.

The second is simply that she saw the defeat of the Mursaat as being worth the risk of the Vizier winning. Yes, from our viewpoint of knowing who the Vizier worked for and what his goals, and his master's goals were, this is hard to understand - but possibly what the Mursaat would have done without the Flameseeker Prophecies would have been worse.

SPOILER:

Actually, there's also a third option: Maybe she knows exactly what's going to happen, and it's all a plot to get Abaddon replaced. Essentially this is a scaling up of the first option above: Allowing the bad guys to almost win faster, but in such a way as to set them up for the fall.

Mabey its all just Glint's version of TV

. Hey, what ELSE would you do if you were a 1000 or so year old dragon? I doubt Abaddon would be able to find/kill her...after all, shes got a lair in a sand grain, and could probably just fly off to HoH...

MegaMouse · Jan 16, 2007, 08:24 AM // 08:24

A few observations of mine to add. The Char do indead whorship the Titans as gods. But the Titans abbadon the Char as useless in NightFall (actualy not sure if they did that before or during NightFall as that is when we find out they abbandoned them). In the Guild Wars lore it is said that the Char invaded the human kingdoms when they were driven out of their homeland by and "Uknown force", We might meet that force in the next chapter as that is a big cliffhanger in itself. As far as Glint goes she is the one that foresaw the Flameseeker Profecies.
If you have played the original Profecies campaign, then you will know that there was a lot of deception going on behindf the sceen's, and it is truly hard to tell exactly who is goodand who is baduntil the very end, where a lot of things finaly make sence.

Mega Mouse

Sorry I do not mean to Flame anyone these are just my observations

draxynnic · Jan 16, 2007, 02:06 PM // 14:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmer in Need

so im thinking theres just basically 3 sides:
glint with:
forgotten
humans (us)
dwarfs
shining blade
good dwarfs
then abbadon with:
viser
charr
titans
margonites.
Next:
mursaat
stone summit
white mantle

Close enough. The mursaat/white mantle and the stone summit weren't allies, though - we see groups of them fighting each other in Ice Caves of Sorrow (where a White Mantle group and a Stone Summit group are exchanging artillery fire until you capture the latter's catapults and use them to set of a dolyak stampede that tramples the former's artillery) and Iron Mines of Moladune (where you run past or fight through a couple of battles between White Mantle and Stone Summit forces). The Mursaat are clearly independent; the Stone Summit appear to be, but their "Great Destroyer" may well be another name for Abaddon or one of his creatures or allies. It would explain how the Lich got his hands on Rurik's body. Heck, maybe Dagnar got corrupted just like Khilbron and Shiro - although this theory is weakened by the lack of Stone Summit Dwarf souls in Torment (unless I just haven't seen them yet) - although it could be that they follow one of Abaddon's allies such as Menzies and thus end up joining their forces elsewhere rather than ending up in Torment.

SPOILER

Given that Abaddon seems to be receiving assistance from Dhuum and Menzies, I'd probably organise along the lines of agents of the True Gods and the Great Dwarf, of Abaddon and his allies, and independant:

True Gods:
Glint:
-Forgotten
-Seers
-Brotherhood of the Dragon (allied; note alternate theology)
Humans:
-Shining Blade
-Sunspears
-Order of Whispers
-Most human nations
Dwarves (allied; note alternate theology)
Elonian Centaurs and Angchu Tengu (possibly)
Abaddon and allies:
Dhuum:
-Terrorweb Dryders
-Banished Dream Riders
-Emissaries
Menzies:
-Shadow Army
Abaddon (Direct Control):
-Torment Demons
-Margonites
-Graven Monoliths
-Titans (and, through them, Charr)
Abaddon (Through Varesh):
-Kournan military
-Allied Corsairs, heket, and other poor schmucks
Abaddon (Through Lich)
-Orrian Undead
Abaddon (Through Shiro)
-Afflicted
-Shiro'ken
Independant:
Mursaat and White Mantle
Stone Summit (presumed) and slaves
Palawa Joko and forces
Other smaller groups, such as Tyrian centaurs, non-Angchu tengu, naga, Echovald Dredge, and so on.

[/SPOILER]

Given that we've ended the trilogy of Abaddon's manipulations, chances are his faction is going to move out of the spotlight and another will arise - which may be expansion of one of the 'independant' factions or something completely new.

gilgameshx · Jan 17, 2007, 02:34 AM // 02:34

I doubt Glint and the lich were working together. Glint did make the Flameseeker Prophecies and the people who have read it (Mursaats and Lich Lord) knew a way to stop the prophecy from being fulfilled. The reason for the prophecy of being made is unknown at the moment.

Near the end of Prophecies, the Lich is known as the Flameseeker (Door of Komalie opened and the Titans were released), most of the Mursaat is dead, and the Chosen defeated the Lich hopefully to bring peace on Tyria. But there was no real conclusion to what happened afterwards except that the Titans rampaged all over and were defeated again.

Wasn't Abaddon's purpose was to destroy as much living thing on the planet so that he would be able to bring nightfall? The souls are needed to fuel his realm. I remember the arguement with one of Dhuum's Lords and the Lich about why the souls given to Abaddon are taking so long. And the Terrorweb Dryders would only listen to Dhuum. Basically, the more people that Abaddon kills the more souls he gets which will make him stronger.

Sophitia Leafblade · Jan 18, 2007, 11:52 AM // 11:52

I think Glint didnt tell us everything because there was a greater good behind it. If you think about it everywhere is better off due to the actions of the heros. If they had know more than they did things would not have played out how they did and chances are thing would have been much worse off

Tryia:
The White mantle have been crippled with there hold over the Kingdom of Kryta enabling the Royal family to be restored.
King Adelburn has become a better ruler again due to the loss of Rurik and the Titan threat.
The Stone Summit leader has been killed and there forces have taken a huge blow.
The Shining Blade have been saved from annhilation

Cantha:
The emporer was saved
The luxons and Kursicks put aside there difference to unite against a common foe
The Dragon Kuuvaang was freed from evil influence

Elona:
The Ascension of Kormir to godhood
Removing the taint of Abaddon

etc. etc.